Zizek's What's to be done next?

Discussion from TB-HQ on Facebook:

Unity Sol [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/24/occupy-wa... [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/24/occupy-wa... Wall Street: what is to be done next?[/url] [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk]www.guardian.co.uk[/url] Slavoj Žižek: How to think past the paradox of a protest movement without a programme confronting a capitalist system that defies reform 24 de abril a la(s) 23:38

• Niu Bee By the way, I added Zizek last week to our "likes" on our other TB page.25 de abril a la(s) 1:07
• Dieter Maas I like Zizek too, even though I think he is basicly "ploughing the field" and the "rocks" he is touching upon are not always resonating with me very deeply. That would be a good point to add to our focus, I find. To come up with a scale or a measuring tool, of "resonance" regarding people who make use of the philosphical sword for global change, or rather the pieces they come up with, seeing also "the thinking" as part of a process, and to use that for our focus in translating.25 de abril a la(s) 1:47
• Dieter Maas For me personally my focus in translating lately was mostly, what other people resonated with and wanted translated urgently, and my own resonance, well .... seems like I am waiting for something.....25 de abril a la(s) 1:50
• Niu Bee I think that is often the "privilege" which philosophers have..a lot of what they say is excellent and then, sometimes there are statements that seem like "utter rubbish" simply because they seem to be coming from a place that doesn't experience a kind of day-to-day harsh reality that requires some practical and realistic things. At those moments I am reminded that they are being paid handsomely in their academic fields as they come up with self-congratulatory statements. Still, there are some good things to be found.25 de abril a la(s) 2:11
• Dieter Maas For me that is ok, I am not criticizing Zizek, the contrary. I think he is doing his best, just like everybody else, who is "ploughing" this topic. That is what I mean, he is "ploughing the field" with the plough he has. Can't do it any other way. And everybody has a life and self-interest limiting or tainting their "box". What I am reminded of is the concept of "the butterfly effect" applied to this whole "thinking space" of "global change". When an idea or way of filtering reality is "uncovered", that clarifies things in a remarkably deeper and clearer way, the resonance effect of what I call "the butterfly effect" represents a form of extreme collective leverage.... so digging for that, like Zizek and his collegues hopefully do, is of course very useful. But also keeping the eyes and ears open to everybody else, and to new ways....., links and addresses. And maybe also, what seems like "utter rubbish" later on can become clear and obvious.25 de abril a la(s) 2:34
• Niu Bee That's a good point. Like I said, I really like Zizek ( and Chomsky, to name but a few). Though sometimes some things theorists and thinkers have come up with, even later on, still seem rubbish (or least do not at all resonate with me) but then again, no entire theory (or theories) of any one philosophers is going to resonate with us all the time and I think that's a normal, and probably healthy, approach.25 de abril a la(s) 2:42
• Dieter Maas Hmm. When something rings true, it's probably not a theory. :) Clarity is a feeling. Things falling into place. Yielding more space, clarity of thinking, integrity.... hmm.25 de abril a la(s) 3:25
• Doğacan Düğmeci does zizek himself have a pasitive program outside market and state? a society with alternative institutions? does zizek himself know how to do this, if we dont mean the old state socialism. what i wanna say is that isn't a bit harsh blaming occupiers and indignados bec they dont have a positive program where nobody clearly knows how it look like. maybe we shold take this as a warning . i remember zizek once said that " better to speak nothing rather than speaking in the language of enemy " so can we not we see occupiers and indignados remain ambigius bec they dont want to speak the language of enemy? we love zizek but does zizek love us?25 de abril a la(s) 14:4
• Lara Gama You know what? I'm tired of reading and reading that there are no alternatives to capitalism, or that the movement doesn't propose alternatives. I've been reading about new forms of economic systems all around, with several different names: Resource-Based Economy, New economy, Green economy, Sharing economy, Participatory economics, Solidarity economy, Gifts economics, Economics of Happiness, or even Sacred economy. The problem is that we can't simply force people to start a new system if they still think there's nothing wrong with the one they're living in.25 de abril a la(s) 15:4
• Lara Gama And I'm also tired of hearing: "oh, you want the end of capitalism? But communism never worked where it was implemented". Ugh, come on, communism is not the only alternative, what a lack of imagination.25 de abril a la(s) 15:49
• Dieter Maas Hehe, yes the "tiredness" ah ya, I can feel that too, It is almost like depression is falling on me, by mere mentioning of this "without alternative" viewpoint. One thing is clear to me: Nobody knows what the next evolutionary step, the "new society" will look like, how could we, since we haven't been there. It's "new", that's why. But that's hard to accept, I agree. And the outcome has to be something, that has to do with "love", like a different quality of social relationship. It's a process, and I favour the view, not that we have to "create" it, or "think it out", but - even though I am male - I prefer the metaphor of "giving birth" to the new world. Since somewhere in feeling it is already in us. And that is what I am interested in, listening and maybe hearing pieces of this new world popping out being born into reality..... And the dinosaurs being demasked and loosing their integrity and their acceptance, which happens in waves. "giving birth" is a different kind of "work ethics" and "definition of work". Because being born, being sick, dieing, sleeping, giving birth, they are also part of "work" or "activism".....25 de abril a la(s) 17:19
• Marietjie Luyt The big thing, always, I think, is that an economic system should benefit EVERYBODY in a particular society. It's all about the common good. Schools, healthcare, etc should be paid for by the community for the members of the community. For me, as a South African, the Scandinavian economies seem wonderful: nobody ever has to go hungry, or not have a roof over their heads. There is so much terrible poverty and destitution in South Africa, even though there are welfare grants, and free medical care for children under six.25 de abril a la(s) 17:37
• Marietjie Luyt And a way must be found to deal with huge international corporations that exploit and waste the resources of a country but do not plough anything back into the country. Basically, they have no interest in a people's or their countryside's wellbeing: they just want to make a profit. But how to go about changing this?25 de abril a la(s) 17:39
• Isabel Cob What they expect is us mending their system, and as it is impossible to mend, they will put the blame on us, still ;-/... As situation goes here in Spain, I don't think we will have much more time to decide if we want to mend the system or if we want to throw it away. So I think that our mission, as individuals living just one life, is to spread the experiences like the examples Lara gave, and to put them into practice as much as we can, to be coherent and reliable, to survive, and to be happy in the attempt. Difficult?25 de abril a la(s) 19:27
• Niu Bee Another form of alternative economic reality is the development of sustainable eco-communities that are springing up everywhere. Not just 1960s ideal of hippie communes. This gives me hope as it proves that it's not just a 2 way system but that a third, fourth, fifth way is possible. I think, personally, each of us has to figure out which 'reality' and emotional truth resonates and then figure out a way to be pro-active in realizing it. I am still trying to figure it out and research (a lot!). One thing stands out: those alternative economic communities that are thriving seem to have three things solidified 1) a clear, simple mission statement of their ethics and organizational approach 2) a solid foundation and pro-active, evolving sense of infrastructure and 3) a progressive, democratic, collaborative and sustainable practice.25 de abril a la(s) 19:58
• Dieter Maas Niucha and Lara, and also Isabel, I am (of course) interested in any - even half way - examples of those kinds "practising" communities. Especially "normal", meaning with a easy pluggable "franchise" system, that is as close "around the corner" e.g. as this "anarchist youth" environment that I watched a report about in German TV(on youtube), called "Barcelona workers families supported by anarchist youth".25 de abril a la(s) 20:06
• Dieter Maas Which was in German obviously....25 de abril a la(s) 20:06
• Niu Bee For example, this place called "The Village" in Ireland to me is a dream. They took an abandoned village and brought is back to life with a shared, eco-sustainable economy, housing and farmland. http://thevillage.ie/25 de abril a la(s) 20:08
• Dieter Maas I was wrong, this wasn't German TV, but some British TV. What I meant with "around the corner"-community-model and this "Barcelona" report was this, because it is "close" to maybe "the news" or something. : http://www.vice.com/alps/vice-news/teenage-riot-spains-neo-revolutionari... Of course for me,myself, I still feel like I could "jump" to a more "ideal" project, but I don't know, if that isn't an illusion......25 de abril a la(s) 20:25
• Dieter Maas And Also I must admit, that maybe due to my Fransciscan upbringing but yet deeply "reclusive" aquietism, I am attracted but also abhorred and impressed by raw authenticity and coping skills.....25 de abril a la(s) 20:39
• Dieter Maas What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle. Your boundaries are your quest. - Jalalluddin Rumi - This is not black and white, this is pain and power, and energy. And the "acndle" that Rumi talks about. To light it. Like in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FWTGmb33Gc25 de abril a la(s) 21:23
• Unity Sol what a fascinating debate!!!!25 de abril a la(s) 21:34
• Unity Sol ‎Marietjie Luyt, I asked you this some time ago, but yet, I'd love to learn more about South Africa socioeconomic situation and the role corporations have in it. I've been rading some stuff from the Mandela's time at "The shock doctrine" from Naomi Klein, what she says seems really enlightning but yet, reality is too complex to be summarized in a chapter book25 de abril a la(s) 21:44
• Unity Sol ‎Lara Gama, what system will it be that save us from ecological catastrophe? Neither Corporate capitalism nor State capitalsim (URSS) scape the logic of infinite growth and consumption25 de abril a la(s) 21:46
• Unity Sol The last point I want to say, is capitalism is based on our personal weakness, insatisfactions, anxiety and spiritual emptyness. That leads us into frenetic consumption and purposeless money -making, only to discover, at the end of our lives, we lived someelse's live. I am personally striving now for not just political/activist revolution but also - and inextricably linked - for a holistic rethinking and remaking of myself, as a spiritual being embedded and socialized in a certain society and moment of history. Capitalism is not just the "system", we reproduce it within us http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-t...[img]http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDhF1l0XhGjvA-S&w=90&h=90... five regrets of the dyingwww.guardian.co.ukA palliative nurse has recorded the most common regrets of the dying. What would your biggest regret be if this was your last day of life?25 de abril a la(s) 21:51
• Dieter Maas David. You said some enthusiastic words, fascinating and stuff. Can you say what specifically made you feel more alive is this? I could guess, you had three posts after that, but I would like to hear what you liked specifically. and what your need was, and how that was helped through this dialogue sequence, what triggered that. And then even more specifically, how you were motivated to address this last point, of the "ego factors" and it's connection to capitalism. Sorry if that feels too much like "inquisition", but that is what I am interested in. :)25 de abril a la(s) 22:52
• Marietjie Luyt Hi David, you haven't asked me an easy question! It is very difficult to know what is really going on in South Africa today. One has to rely on what the newspapers and people in the know tell you. A good place to start would be to read the Mail and Guardian online. Its web adress is www.mg.co.za. An Act of Parliament was recently passed in terms of which whistleblowers can land in jail for 25 years if they pass on government information which has been labelled 'secret' to the newspapers. A public interest defence was not included in the Act. An organization fighting this Act is on facebook and is called the Right2Know organization. There seems to be horrendous corruption in government, with politicians and office holders lining their pockets at the expense of everybody else. Poor people in South Africa are poorer than ever before. Infrastructure is falling apart. Big mining companies ravage the landscape, the water supplies, the soil, and get away with it. Often these companies aren't even South African; and the coal and other minerals they extract are exported overseas. Walmart has just been given the green light to do business in South Africa. China seems to have a huge influence on our government - we are now a member of BRIC, and nobody wants to antagonize them. So the Dalai Lama was refused entry to South Africa. He wanted to attend his friend Archbishop Tutu's 80th birthday. Nelson Mandela is very frail (I think he is now 92 years old) and his dream of a fair and non-racial South Africa seems to have been lost.25 de abril a la(s) 23:23
• Lara Gama David Sol, trying to answer your question, I think what's new about all these ideas of alternative economic systems is exactly that they place humans and nature at the center of society's organization, instead of the accumulation of capital and growth. They're based on the development of human capabilities and the wise use of natural resources. Some of them imply the abolition of national states in favour of more local communities (connected globally somehow), where direct democracy would be more viable. Some of them imply the abolition of big multinational corporations. Some of them even advocate the abolition of money itself - can you imagine a world without money?27 de abril a la(s) 3:45
• Lara Gama Should we open a debate about this on the forum at www.translatorbrigades.org? There's a lot to be discussed!27 de abril a la(s) 4:17
• Niu Bee ‎Lara , I believe many of us are. It may be one of the reasons why we're all here together on this page. There is a real "awakening" happening, but like all things, it's much more at the grassroots level It's small yet thriving. IS everyone ready? I doubt it. Many don't want to be..such change can be unsettling and force us to changing everything we might have once thought was the norm. Change is always difficult, slow, messy, exciting and yes, even a scary process. But perhaps what is more important is not waiting for the rest of the world to evolve mindfully and/or spiritually, but as Gandhi said,to actually "be the change we want to see" and somehow be part of those creating the third way.27 de abril a la(s) 4:17
• Niu Bee I think opening a debate on the blog is a great idea!27 de abril a la(s) 4:19
• Niu Bee ‎...but I am not quite sure how to do it. We may need to ask for some "technical' help.27 de abril a la(s) 4:20
• Lara Gama I had deleted a post but since Nioucha replied to it so beautifully I'm going to repost it, lol. What I was saying is that I agree with Unity Sol and Dieter Maas (and now, Niu Bee ;) when they point out that the creation of this paradigm shift would require a new step on the spiritual evolution of makind. This would mean new types of social relations, where we would substitute competition for cooperation, individualism for independence, egoism for compassion and violence for love. Are we ready for that?? I love all that you said Nioucha. :)27 de abril a la(s) 4:39
• Niu Bee I love what you said too, Lara! And that you are here to contribute! :-)27 de abril a la(s) 4:47
• Lara Gama Oh and I mean individualism for interdependence, not independence lol. 27 de abril a la(s) 4:56